I’m all for letting people wear whatever they want. What is the harm?
Here in Canada I’ve seen police officers wearing turbans. Works for me. Nude beaches? Sure thing. I’ve seen people in my neighborhood wearing Saudi-style niqabs and Afghan-style burqas.
Who am I to tell people what they should or shouldn’t wear? How could it be my business?
I’m also for people burning the Qur’an if they so please. Or the bible, or the rainbow flag, or the national flag if that’s how they want to protest. Ideas are there to be challenged.
I understand that’s how things are, but I don’t think that is how they should be. And while I’m an atheist, I also understand many people aren’t. Why force my irreligiosity on them?
So while students should not be indoctrinated on any particular religion in school, I don’t see the harm in letting both teachers and students wear whatever they like, including religious symbols.
In fact, it would be great if we taught all students the basics of multiple world religions in school and let people of different faiths talk to each other about what is important to them.
I really like this stance. Understanding other people is absolutely important. You don’t have to agree with them, but you do have to understand them and see them as people.
Precisely! We have more in common than not. And I sincerely believe that we become more tolerant by talking and trying to understand each other, even if we find areas where we disagree.
Remaining in our own little information bubble is what radicalizes people.
I can see where you are coming from. How can we forbid clothing if the goal is to not dictate what to wear?
But consider that in a community, be that at school or in the neighborhood, classmates and neighbors can uphold unregulated, religious rules. Is it free choice of clothing if the law doesn’t forbid anything, but only girls with (insert appropriate clothing) are allowed to join in the play? And there is plenty precedent of religion that causes precisely such group behavior.
There is plenty of precedent of non-religious informal rules around clothing. E.g. men wearing skirts, dresses, or soft “feminine” colors. Do those informal rules bother you as well? Should we change the law accordingly, or are we okay with informal norms of conduct in that case?
In general, yes I do think that we should get rid of such informal rules. And I would appreciate a law that e.g. ensures an employer can not discriminate against men wearing dresses or skirts. For what it’s worth, there have been protest by bus drivers, who are not allowed to wear shorts in the summer, who showed up in skirts on a hot day.
If we change the garment from abayas to pants it would be “to ban male students from wearing pants in school”, meaning they’d be forced to wear skirts or dresses. But two points make this different from the OP:
Since this is not linked to religion it has a slightly different spin. I can’t put it into words that well, but a guy choosing to wear a skirt is just that, a clothing choice. But Islam is pretty explicit that women should cover themselves. So if a guy goes against the informal law people would make fun of him. If an Islam woman wears short clothes she is not only made fun of, but can also get in trouble with her entire community.
While dresses/skirts are almost exclusively worn by women, pants are worn by men and women. So a guy wearing pants is not the outlier, he is wearing the gender neutral clothing. If abayas are also worn by a significant fraction of male students in France I would heavily oppose the proposed ban, but I found nothing that would indicate such a practice.
Well if that really were the fears of people proposing such bans, then there would be a lot of better ways to achieve this. At the very least they would try to support such bans with flanking policies such as better infrastructure to support such women who are oppressed in a religious ways as for example better integration courses and public information.
And for some reason it’s always only about Muslim women! Other religions which can also coerce or force family members to follow a certain dress code, not a single word about them.
And for some reason it’s always only about Muslim women! Other religions which can also coerce or force family members to follow a certain dress code, not a single word about them.
Because right now and in Europe those are rather rare. Afaik there’s some Christian groups where women always wear long skirts, but those groups tend to get called “cults” (“Sekten” here in Germany) so I don’t really see a double standard there.
That said, there are surveys regarding why women wear hijabs and - at least in Germany - those say that the vast majority wears them voluntarily.
Because right now and in Europe those are rather rare.
So were Muslim women wearing Burqas and yet several countries have made laws against them. So the rarity of the oppression doesn’t seem to matter that much.
But regardless, if this is a legitimate problem, then the law should be secular and apply to all religions.
I understand that’s how things are, but I don’t think that is how they should be.
Don’t take that guy just at his word. France does force secularism on their government buildings and workers, including teachers. But public wearing of religious symbols or garnment is perfectly fine. They recently banned face covering, with the obvious target of Muslim women wearing burqa or niqabs, but everything else is perfectly legal to wear in public.
I don’t see harm by them not being allowed to wear it…
How would you feel about somebody banning your favorite attire? What right do they have to tell you what to wear?
And you should talk about all religions, but only in a negative way.
Why? Even though I’m an atheist, it’s also clear that religion is often a source of comfort and community to many people, especially during times of hardship. And by learning a little about different religions we can learn to be more tolerant of people who see the world differently.
How would you feel about somebody banning your favorite attire? What right do they have to tell you what to wear?
Its not a favorite attire when its a religious thing that is forced on people.
Why? Even though I’m an atheist, it’s also clear that religion is often a source of comfort and community to many people, especially during times of hardship. And by learning a little about different religions we can learn to be more tolerant of people who see the world differently.
Nope. We don’t need to tolerate things that preach intolerance. There is nothing positive about religions in general.
Its not a favorite attire when its a religious thing that is forced on people.
Am I asking that we force women to cover their hair? No, I’m saying that they should be allowed to choose by themselves. Not coerced to cover it, not banned from doing so either. Let them choose.
We don’t need to tolerate things that preach intolerance. There is nothing positive about religions in general.
The only intolerance we are seeing here is your own.
Oh, yeah, I’m suggesting that people should be able to choose what they wear. And that religion can be a source of comfort to people. How hateful and intolerant of me! I should go return my atheism card in shame.
Every sign being banned in public? So what about all the crosses on the churches, or the ringing of their bells? What about people wearing crosses and nunns wearing the traditional dress? What about the easter processions in some places?
Sorry, but claiming that this would be in line with a secular policy doesnt work. It is target against muslims and muslims specifically without any actual bearing on secularism
While i support it for government employees in schools or other jobs with the public, i think we also need to look at the role of the attire. Priests and Nunns wear specific attire to their religious role.
It is not day to day clothing for normal people. for the Abbaya, or we had the same discussion in Germany for Hijab or any scarf around the head i always found it absurd since my areligious grandmother wore a scarf covering her head all the time and she preffered clothing that weren’t emphasizing her body shape. For day to day clothing or accessoires it becomes muddled quickly. is the cross on the wristlet a sign of religious affiliation, or just looking cute? Are the semi-moon earrings only worn by muslims, or does Anna-Sophia just like how it emphasizes her face? What about Marcs metal-band shirt with a cross on it? The only surefire way to “solve” it, would be to define a mandatory school uniform.
France doesn’t have the First Amendment. I mean, I don’t much think that this is a good idea either, but different country, different system of government.
For what it’s worth, As a German I don’ t particularly like the right to free speech as it exists in the US. It allows way too much, including harmful things. E.g. in Germany it is not allowed to glorify the Holocaust. I’m pretty sure such a thing would be allowed as free speech in the US.
I’m an American living in Germany. It’s not honestly much different in effect. In the US I could insult a police officer as much as I want (but you know… if I choose the wrong one they’ll fucking kill me), whereas it’s illegal in Germany. There’s a lot of things like that, where there’s technically the freedom to do something but it doesn’t really mean freedom
Yeah, you kinda privatized speech control. It*s interesting that in the US people can get easily fired over things they said on social media. In Germany that’s harder. Not just because of legal protections (there are some, but they’re not that strong) but also because there’s an understanding that what can and cannot be said shouldn’t be decided by people on Twitter/X but by the law.
Yup. There’s also a much stronger line between your work life and your private life. It’s wild to me (not bad, just very unexpected) that people with drug possession charges don’t lose their jobs here, even office workers or teachers
That people with drug possession charges don’t lose their jobs here, even office workers or teachers
Especially those. For criminal things to become relevant they have to be connected to the job at hand. Hence drugs would be mainly an issue in areas where you operate heavy machinery.
Fun fact: You are allowed to lie about your criminal past in job interviews if it’s those are not connected to the job. Hence any smart employer will only ask whether you were convicted of anything that is relevant to them. Otherwise firing you will be expensive.
And of course it’s also hard to employers to find out whether an employee has any criminal convictions. Afaik only a few select areas, e.g. the arms industry and kindergartens (the later look for sex and violence related crimes, not drugs), actually check criminal records and they do have to get permission from you or you’ll even have to get the documents (“Führungszeugnis”) yourself.
There are entire YouTube channels dedicated to people who film themselves screaming profanities at police officers in the US to get them to do something illegal.
This group of people calls themselves First Amendment Auditors.
It’s a smoke screen to get right wing voters on their side once again. Public services in France are in shambles, our education is getting noticeably worse by the decade and this is what these fucks focus on.
That makes sense. Here in Canada they use similar tactics to distract people from stuff like the astronomical cost of housing, crumbling health care, underfunded education, etc.
Yeah, last year the conversation was about banning crop tops and this year it’s long dresses, every September there’s something to talk about in french schools.
In Spain you are allowed to walk around naked on any public spaces, with very few exceptions. It doesn’t happen very often in practice, but it’s allowed.
Yeah, *that’ is how you actually let people decide to wear what they want.
I’m just always a bit annoyed when US-Americans criticise it when European countries ban certain clothing. They have rather draconian laws at home as well. And of course we’re talking about schools here, hence school uniforms provide another relevant and rather widespread example of infringements on clothing-freedom.
Being nude in public is technically legal (but only kinda*) in my country but I don’t think forcing people to wear any clothes is comparable to banning specific types of clothes.
*It’s basically legal as long as you’re not offending anyone.
So walking around naked around town might be legal, but anything you do could suddenly make it illegal.
This means that the law doesn’t really have to be changed overtime since it’s just based on what the general population thinks should be okay and not.
I don’t think forcing people to wear any clothes is comparable to banning specific types of clothes.
There are differences, but I’d actually argue that only banning very specific clothing is a lesser infraction on liberty. If you really want to be nude, you have to ditch clothing altogether. With specific garments there tends to be some wiggle room. E.g. you might try to adhere to your religious rules by wearing a wig and baggy clothing.
Edit: I agree with you that it’s based on the “offending portion” but that’s the case with religious clothing in France. A lot of people there are offended by it.
I agree, but there is a somewhat thorny question here: Where does the dictation start?
Many of these students and their families are being dictated to by Sunni wahabbist imams trained and funded by Saudi oil money, and they actually come from cultures and religious traditions that didn’t give a shit about the abaya in the ‘60s and ‘70s.
Well how about they tackle the foreign financial support of such extremist religious subgroups then? How about they provide more public information about the personal rights of women to choose themself what they wear? How about providing better infrastructure with properly trained social workers to better help such women to flee from such oppressive households?
Any of these examples would be several times better at actually improving the lives of such women. Definitely more than them being forced to not wear something. Women who are forced to wear such stuff should be helped to understand that it isn’t right for them to be forced to wear something they don’t want. Guess what certainly doesn’t help in that task, the state also dictating what they can’t wear.
Can you elaborate? What else does it do? I’m queer, and while I don’t like seeing the rainbow flag being burnt, it doesn’t compare with receiving a beating.
it is a precursor to beating. Attack the symbols first and if it is socially accepted you can escalate to violence against the people. The Nazis didnt start by gassing the jews. they started with making it okay fo be hostile to them in public, denouncing them in every way and slowly ramping up the violence. Same story for any discrimination of minorities escalated into violence and murder.
The fact that you think this is about “hurt feelings” rather than what it is - actual oppression that leads to real life marginalisation, violence, and death, you’re either not paying attention or are being wilfully ignorant and obtuse.
All this “enlightened” centrism bullshit does is enable oppressors
Could you please elaborate?
You could open your eyes, or simply take the idea of dictating what people do and don’t wear to it’s only conclusion (it is literally oppression in its own right, no matter your personal feelings on the matter), but here, I’ll save you having to do any hard work:
Sorry, I truly have trouble understanding your sentences. I gather that you are upset, but I’m not sure about what, exactly. I hope things turn out okay for you.
I’m all for letting people wear whatever they want. What is the harm?
Here in Canada I’ve seen police officers wearing turbans. Works for me. Nude beaches? Sure thing. I’ve seen people in my neighborhood wearing Saudi-style niqabs and Afghan-style burqas.
Who am I to tell people what they should or shouldn’t wear? How could it be my business?
I’m also for people burning the Qur’an if they so please. Or the bible, or the rainbow flag, or the national flag if that’s how they want to protest. Ideas are there to be challenged.
I draw the line at threatening or harming people.
France is a secularist Republic. Freedom of religion is guaranteed but every religious sign is banned in the public space.
I understand that’s how things are, but I don’t think that is how they should be. And while I’m an atheist, I also understand many people aren’t. Why force my irreligiosity on them?
So while students should not be indoctrinated on any particular religion in school, I don’t see the harm in letting both teachers and students wear whatever they like, including religious symbols.
In fact, it would be great if we taught all students the basics of multiple world religions in school and let people of different faiths talk to each other about what is important to them.
I really like this stance. Understanding other people is absolutely important. You don’t have to agree with them, but you do have to understand them and see them as people.
Precisely! We have more in common than not. And I sincerely believe that we become more tolerant by talking and trying to understand each other, even if we find areas where we disagree.
Remaining in our own little information bubble is what radicalizes people.
I can see where you are coming from. How can we forbid clothing if the goal is to not dictate what to wear?
But consider that in a community, be that at school or in the neighborhood, classmates and neighbors can uphold unregulated, religious rules. Is it free choice of clothing if the law doesn’t forbid anything, but only girls with (insert appropriate clothing) are allowed to join in the play? And there is plenty precedent of religion that causes precisely such group behavior.
There is plenty of precedent of non-religious informal rules around clothing. E.g. men wearing skirts, dresses, or soft “feminine” colors. Do those informal rules bother you as well? Should we change the law accordingly, or are we okay with informal norms of conduct in that case?
In general, yes I do think that we should get rid of such informal rules. And I would appreciate a law that e.g. ensures an employer can not discriminate against men wearing dresses or skirts. For what it’s worth, there have been protest by bus drivers, who are not allowed to wear shorts in the summer, who showed up in skirts on a hot day.
If we change the garment from abayas to pants it would be “to ban male students from wearing pants in school”, meaning they’d be forced to wear skirts or dresses. But two points make this different from the OP:
Well if that really were the fears of people proposing such bans, then there would be a lot of better ways to achieve this. At the very least they would try to support such bans with flanking policies such as better infrastructure to support such women who are oppressed in a religious ways as for example better integration courses and public information.
And for some reason it’s always only about Muslim women! Other religions which can also coerce or force family members to follow a certain dress code, not a single word about them.
Because right now and in Europe those are rather rare. Afaik there’s some Christian groups where women always wear long skirts, but those groups tend to get called “cults” (“Sekten” here in Germany) so I don’t really see a double standard there.
That said, there are surveys regarding why women wear hijabs and - at least in Germany - those say that the vast majority wears them voluntarily.
So were Muslim women wearing Burqas and yet several countries have made laws against them. So the rarity of the oppression doesn’t seem to matter that much.
But regardless, if this is a legitimate problem, then the law should be secular and apply to all religions.
Don’t take that guy just at his word. France does force secularism on their government buildings and workers, including teachers. But public wearing of religious symbols or garnment is perfectly fine. They recently banned face covering, with the obvious target of Muslim women wearing burqa or niqabs, but everything else is perfectly legal to wear in public.
I don’t see harm by them not being allowed to wear it…
And you should talk about all religions, but only in a negative way.
How would you feel about somebody banning your favorite attire? What right do they have to tell you what to wear?
Why? Even though I’m an atheist, it’s also clear that religion is often a source of comfort and community to many people, especially during times of hardship. And by learning a little about different religions we can learn to be more tolerant of people who see the world differently.
Its not a favorite attire when its a religious thing that is forced on people.
Nope. We don’t need to tolerate things that preach intolerance. There is nothing positive about religions in general.
Am I asking that we force women to cover their hair? No, I’m saying that they should be allowed to choose by themselves. Not coerced to cover it, not banned from doing so either. Let them choose.
The only intolerance we are seeing here is your own.
Still supporting hate and intolerance i see. Get lost.
Oh, yeah, I’m suggesting that people should be able to choose what they wear. And that religion can be a source of comfort to people. How hateful and intolerant of me! I should go return my atheism card in shame.
Every sign being banned in public? So what about all the crosses on the churches, or the ringing of their bells? What about people wearing crosses and nunns wearing the traditional dress? What about the easter processions in some places?
Sorry, but claiming that this would be in line with a secular policy doesnt work. It is target against muslims and muslims specifically without any actual bearing on secularism
These laws have been made to kick of the priest out of the school. If you’re a nun or a priest and attend school you have to wear civil clothe.
I am fine saying that these laws are over used against Muslim,but religious signs are banned in school and for government employee
While i support it for government employees in schools or other jobs with the public, i think we also need to look at the role of the attire. Priests and Nunns wear specific attire to their religious role.
It is not day to day clothing for normal people. for the Abbaya, or we had the same discussion in Germany for Hijab or any scarf around the head i always found it absurd since my areligious grandmother wore a scarf covering her head all the time and she preffered clothing that weren’t emphasizing her body shape. For day to day clothing or accessoires it becomes muddled quickly. is the cross on the wristlet a sign of religious affiliation, or just looking cute? Are the semi-moon earrings only worn by muslims, or does Anna-Sophia just like how it emphasizes her face? What about Marcs metal-band shirt with a cross on it? The only surefire way to “solve” it, would be to define a mandatory school uniform.
No it’s not! Thousands of people walk around with religious symbols and garnments in public all the time in France.
Secularism is enforced in government offices and employed people.
As an American this is difficult to comprehend. I’m feeling culture shock. Maybe the first xenophobia I’ve experienced in years.
France doesn’t have the First Amendment. I mean, I don’t much think that this is a good idea either, but different country, different system of government.
For what it’s worth, As a German I don’ t particularly like the right to free speech as it exists in the US. It allows way too much, including harmful things. E.g. in Germany it is not allowed to glorify the Holocaust. I’m pretty sure such a thing would be allowed as free speech in the US.
I’m an American living in Germany. It’s not honestly much different in effect. In the US I could insult a police officer as much as I want (but you know… if I choose the wrong one they’ll fucking kill me), whereas it’s illegal in Germany. There’s a lot of things like that, where there’s technically the freedom to do something but it doesn’t really mean freedom
Yeah, you kinda privatized speech control. It*s interesting that in the US people can get easily fired over things they said on social media. In Germany that’s harder. Not just because of legal protections (there are some, but they’re not that strong) but also because there’s an understanding that what can and cannot be said shouldn’t be decided by people on Twitter/X but by the law.
Yup. There’s also a much stronger line between your work life and your private life. It’s wild to me (not bad, just very unexpected) that people with drug possession charges don’t lose their jobs here, even office workers or teachers
Especially those. For criminal things to become relevant they have to be connected to the job at hand. Hence drugs would be mainly an issue in areas where you operate heavy machinery.
Fun fact: You are allowed to lie about your criminal past in job interviews if it’s those are not connected to the job. Hence any smart employer will only ask whether you were convicted of anything that is relevant to them. Otherwise firing you will be expensive. And of course it’s also hard to employers to find out whether an employee has any criminal convictions. Afaik only a few select areas, e.g. the arms industry and kindergartens (the later look for sex and violence related crimes, not drugs), actually check criminal records and they do have to get permission from you or you’ll even have to get the documents (“Führungszeugnis”) yourself.
There are entire YouTube channels dedicated to people who film themselves screaming profanities at police officers in the US to get them to do something illegal.
This group of people calls themselves First Amendment Auditors.
A camera provides a lot of insurance in this case.
Never ever do something like that without having a camera or cellphone recording.
So racist haha. Very on-brand for France honestly.
It’s a smoke screen to get right wing voters on their side once again. Public services in France are in shambles, our education is getting noticeably worse by the decade and this is what these fucks focus on.
They’ve been doing this shit for years, though…
Absolutely, they are way more open about it nowadays though
That makes sense. Here in Canada they use similar tactics to distract people from stuff like the astronomical cost of housing, crumbling health care, underfunded education, etc.
Yeah, last year the conversation was about banning crop tops and this year it’s long dresses, every September there’s something to talk about in french schools.
Exactly this, and it’s the perfect example of how “progressives” (that aren’t really that) enable fascism.
No one is calling Frances government “progressive” so why are you attaching that label to this?
This is an example how right wing capitalists enable fascism.
Our government hides it less and less. They are basically proto fascists that would do anything to help their rich friends keep their power.
In other words: Nudist “clothing” is banned from the entire public safe very few exceptions.
In Spain you are allowed to walk around naked on any public spaces, with very few exceptions. It doesn’t happen very often in practice, but it’s allowed.
Yeah, *that’ is how you actually let people decide to wear what they want.
I’m just always a bit annoyed when US-Americans criticise it when European countries ban certain clothing. They have rather draconian laws at home as well. And of course we’re talking about schools here, hence school uniforms provide another relevant and rather widespread example of infringements on clothing-freedom.
Being nude in public is technically legal (but only kinda*) in my country but I don’t think forcing people to wear any clothes is comparable to banning specific types of clothes.
*It’s basically legal as long as you’re not offending anyone. So walking around naked around town might be legal, but anything you do could suddenly make it illegal.
This means that the law doesn’t really have to be changed overtime since it’s just based on what the general population thinks should be okay and not.
There are differences, but I’d actually argue that only banning very specific clothing is a lesser infraction on liberty. If you really want to be nude, you have to ditch clothing altogether. With specific garments there tends to be some wiggle room. E.g. you might try to adhere to your religious rules by wearing a wig and baggy clothing.
Edit: I agree with you that it’s based on the “offending portion” but that’s the case with religious clothing in France. A lot of people there are offended by it.
I love you
I love you too 😁
Except these bans are harming people.
Anyone dictating what others can or cannot wear is harming people.
All this “enlightened” centrism bullshit does is enable oppressors.
The guy you answered was argueing the opposite of what you understood. He said, there should be no prohibition of practices unless they harm people.
I agree, but there is a somewhat thorny question here: Where does the dictation start?
Many of these students and their families are being dictated to by Sunni wahabbist imams trained and funded by Saudi oil money, and they actually come from cultures and religious traditions that didn’t give a shit about the abaya in the ‘60s and ‘70s.
Well how about they tackle the foreign financial support of such extremist religious subgroups then? How about they provide more public information about the personal rights of women to choose themself what they wear? How about providing better infrastructure with properly trained social workers to better help such women to flee from such oppressive households?
Any of these examples would be several times better at actually improving the lives of such women. Definitely more than them being forced to not wear something. Women who are forced to wear such stuff should be helped to understand that it isn’t right for them to be forced to wear something they don’t want. Guess what certainly doesn’t help in that task, the state also dictating what they can’t wear.
Sorry for not being clear in my statement. I mean harming as in: beheading, stoning, bombing, shooting, etc. Not as in hurting their feelings.
But we agree: nobody should impose on other people what they can or cannot wear, whether it is religious symbols or pirate regalia.
Could you please elaborate?
burning rainbow flags doesn’t only hurt feelings
Can you elaborate? What else does it do? I’m queer, and while I don’t like seeing the rainbow flag being burnt, it doesn’t compare with receiving a beating.
it is a precursor to beating. Attack the symbols first and if it is socially accepted you can escalate to violence against the people. The Nazis didnt start by gassing the jews. they started with making it okay fo be hostile to them in public, denouncing them in every way and slowly ramping up the violence. Same story for any discrimination of minorities escalated into violence and murder.
it represents a hate crime
these bans harm people because they
The fact that you think this is about “hurt feelings” rather than what it is - actual oppression that leads to real life marginalisation, violence, and death, you’re either not paying attention or are being wilfully ignorant and obtuse.
You could open your eyes, or simply take the idea of dictating what people do and don’t wear to it’s only conclusion (it is literally oppression in its own right, no matter your personal feelings on the matter), but here, I’ll save you having to do any hard work:
specifically:
https://socialistworker.co.uk/what-we-think/stop-islamophobic-attacks-on-the-veil/
https://stockholmcf.org/intl-human-rights-bodies-warn-ecj-ruling-over-headscarf-ban-panders-to-prejudice/
https://daily.jstor.org/muslim-women-and-the-politics-of-the-headscarf/
generally:
https://www.counterpunch.org/2020/10/14/liberalism-and-fascism-partners-in-crime/
https://blacklikemao.medium.com/how-liberalism-helps-fascism-d4dbdcb199d9
https://truthout.org/articles/fascism-is-possible-not-in-spite-of-liberal-capitalism-but-because-of-it/
https://nyanarchist.wordpress.com/2019/01/23/scratch-a-liberal-a-fascist-bleeds-how-the-so-called-middle-class-has-enabled-oppression-for-centuries/
Sorry, I truly have trouble understanding your sentences. I gather that you are upset, but I’m not sure about what, exactly. I hope things turn out okay for you.
Lmfao, go fuck yourself you condescending wilfully ignorant fascism enabling prick. Was that clear enough for you?
I will do so thinking of you 😘