First of all, Drag, I voted for Harris, and actually voted Democrat down ballot. So from this trans veterans lips to your ear canals: Drag can go fuck Dragself for calling me a Nazi for having the audacity to criticize the party I’m forced to vote for that doesn’t represent any of my interests.
And that right fucking there is why Democrats lose, and Democrats are to blame: they can’t do anything but give us a candidate to vote against, and not one to vote for.
How many voters do you think they would have pulled running on an actual, progressive platform instead of the status quo bullshit we’re all clearly tired of? Medicare4All, free tuition, free school meals, actually funding social welfare programs, actually enshrining LGBTQ+ and bodily autonomy rights into law, expanding the supreme court to actually reflect the country’s wishes, abolishing the filibuster so progress can potentially start again in the Senate, stopping weapons shipments for the Palestinian genocide (or ffs, even taking a stance on the genocide)?
The Democrats lost, and fascism won, because the Democrats refuse to listen to their base. Dem voters stayed home because their party leadership failed to inspire them, and I’m sick of the people asking for policies that will actually benefit them instead of some billionaire oligarchs (where’s the blame pointed at the millions they funneled into the elections) being blamed for everything. This isn’t even considering the four years Biden had to show the American people any progress, any discernible improvement in their economic lives, and failed to do so.
Just like in 2016: the DNC forced a candidate onto the party they didn’t want, refused to listen to any vocal portions of the party while condescendingly telling them that party leaders know best and they need to fall in line, campaigned on uninspiring centrist policies and a return to the status quo, keep preaching about working across the aisle while being slandered and shit on, and then assume the race is in the bag because the other candidate is a fascist reality star.
And just like in 2016, they lost, and they have no one to blame but themselves.
because the Democrats refuse to listen to their base
I now think there is no base. Doesn’t exist. If the left doesn’t show up after Biden did green energy, EVs, IRA, student debt relief, non-compete clauses being banned via FTC, Pact act, supporting Ukraine, etc, AND to prevent a literal Hitler quoting fascist getting in, then the left either will literally never show up, or doesn’t exist. The left is done. No one is going to run a left platform for fucking decades. Because the left never shows up, or doesn’t exist.
Ok, but think about those policies, and think about how much they actually affect the average American. Not the white collar worker making clost to six figures working from home with solid benefits, retirement, etc.
Green energy
He’s done a fair amount, but Harris blew this when she reversed her stance on fracking. We’re using more renewable energy, but we’re still heavily dependent on fossil fuels.
EVs
Biden did EVs? Idk what that means, but, ok, first, most Americans still can’t afford an electric vehicle, and the charging infrastructure is incredibly lackluster outside of major metro area. Even with any rebates or tax incentives, I don’t know anyone in my social circle who can afford a new EV, and we’re definitely all average American.
So the average American wasn’t affected by this, at least not in a way that they can directly observe, which is important.
IRA
40% of Americans can’t afford an emergency car repair, and over 30% have a negative net worth. Doesn’t sound to me like a good number of Americans can afford to contribute to an IRA, but even then, I haven’t heard about this or at least don’t remember, and I actually pay attention to politics. So it likely wasn’t on the minds of most Americans.
Student debt relief
This one I thought would carry him more, but I don’t remember the Dems pounding this home the last few weeks. Regardless, yes, Biden has done student debt relief, but not to the extent he promised, and regardless of the reasons, that’s what voters remember.
Could also throw in there that there was a lot of animosity around student debt relief when no relief has been offered (or even really discussed) for credit card debt incurred during the Pandemic. That’s something Biden could have addressed and didn’t, and neither did Harris.
non-compete clauses being banned via FDA
This was a win, I’ll give Biden that, but this doesn’t affect the majority of average Americans. I’ve never worked a job where I signed a non-compete, and the only people I do work in tech or engineering.
Again, a win for Biden, but not a flashy one, and one that people clearly quickly forgot about.
Pact Act
My only criticism of this one is the fact it was passed, and then disappeared from public discourse. It’s been at least a couple years since it was passed, so it likely just fell from people’s memories, which is unfortunate.
supporting Ukraine
There was congressional fuckery around this though, and the support hasn’t always been as much as the American people want to provide.
Though, I think alongside Israel, aid to Ukraine was actually a detriment. Why can we send Israel whatever with no strings attached or Congressional approval, but we can’t send a bolt to Ukraine without a majority across the government?
I understand the intricacies of those two aid situations, but does the average American? Probably not.
The left is done. No one is going to run a left platform for fucking decades. Because the left never shows up, or doesn’t exist.
I find this funny, that it’s always the left’s fault for not supporting centrist, status quo candidates. I’m genuinely asking, has the DNC ever, ever, run a true, progressive candidate for the presidency? I mean, seriously, have they ever done it?
Because in my memory, they haven’t, they just keep trying these centrist candidates, and they keep losing, but then keep blaming the left for not supporting them while they move slightly more right.
Why am I such a radical on this platform for thinking, or even suggesting, that maybe the Democrats need to move left for once. Maybe try a progressive candidate and see if you motivate people to vote for someone, instead of expecting them to come out and vote against someone.
Ok, but think about those policies, and think about how much they actually affect the average American.
Not the white collar worker making clost to six figures working from home with solid benefits, retirement, etc.
It’s not. Student debt relief helps the social worker (takes degree), teacher, etc. Like read the criteria to get
Green energy
Play the scenario out. 1) Harris says she’d ban fracking. 2) Fox and Trump yell incessantly how that will raise gas prices. It’s an instant loss and she knew it.
Biden did EVs? Idk what that means
Seriously? You don’t know that Biden rolled out policies to support production of EVs? I can only think this is horribly bad faith, so this is my last reply and I will not go into much depth on anything.
most Americans still can’t afford an electric vehicle
And they never will until they go into mass production. The industry needs to start.
and the charging infrastructure is incredibly lackluster
WOW. Biden funded charging infrastructure. That you don’t know this… Ok this shows to me there is no point in covering anything else in any detail.
So broadly:
You’re playing two sides here. You seem to want left things. But when I list left things, you take issue with them all for various reasons. So you want left things, but then you complain about left things. You’re playing games. So I’m just gonna c+p a broad answer I gave someone else:
Green energy, IRA, student debt relief, non-compete clauses being banned via FDA, etc. If the left can’t show up to support things like that, you’re not going to get anything further left. Not gonna happen. Not how it works. You walk before you run, you test the waters before you take the plunge, and now that we saw it doesn’t get you votes (midterms or next election), guess what direction the Dems are going to sprint to? Yeah the Dems are going to sprint to the center. Because the left never shows up, or doesn’t exist.
IRA
Inflation Reduction Act. 100% that you’re playing games and not serious. I’m out.
I’m genuinely asking, has the DNC ever, ever, run a true, progressive candidate for the presidency?
You’re not genuine, you’re playing games. But this one I have saved so I can just paste it:
Ok let’s go through this chronologically.
Bill Clinton: After successive Dem losses Bill figured out “it’s the economy stupid”, aka center policy, not leftist policy. Plus when you run against an incumbent (Bush senior) you generally run from the center. So that’s what he did. And he won.
Gore: After the population hopefully warmed up with Bill Clinton, he stuck his head out left with climate change. And bam he lost the election. Thanks 3rd party protest voters! Aka: The left never shows up.
Obama: So guess what Obama learned? Don’t stick your head out. He ran on broad “hope” and “yes we can” and having energy, hoping the ambiguity would be enough considering Bush’s disastrous wars. And he won.
More on Obama: So he enacted the ACA. That’s great, right? The thanks Obama got for that was to lose the House of Representatives for year 3 and 4. And lose the House of reps again for years 5 and 6. And then lose both the House of reps and the Senate for years 7 and 8. He enacted left policy and: The left never shows up.
Hillary Clinton: So what did Hillary learn from the last 6 years of Obama? She learned that the left never shows up. So she only stuck her head out with a big position to left on the map room to climate change. She basically declared war on climate change. You know that big existential issue that all the leftists care about, right? The big important issue that the left says they want so badly, right? And guess what happened? Bam she lost. Thanks protest non-voters! Aka: The left never shows up.
Biden: Just like Obama learned from Gore, Biden learned from Hillary that you don’t stick your head out left on anything. Not one thing. And he was running against an incumbent, so once again when you do that you run center. And he won.
More on Biden: But he did left things anyway. He did green energy, EVs, drug price control, PACT act, chips act, etc. And what were the results? Lost the House of Representatives for years 3 and 4. Polls showed him losing the election to Trump. He enacted left policy and: The left didn’t show up for midterms, and was not going to show up for the next election.
Harris: So guess what Harris did? She adopted Obama’s tactic to run on broad “get ahead” and having energy. She has no reason to think the left will ever show up. And update: They didn’t show up, even when their human rights were on the line.
And people are amazed that they don’t run a big left platform? Every time they stick their head left they lose. Every Single Time. And the next guy learns to go to the center to win. Because the center voters actually show up.
With this history, you’d be an absolute fool to cater to and rely on the left. Because. They. Never. Show. Up.
So how do you get them to move left? By giving them victories first. Consistent and overwhelming victories. Show them it’s safe to take policy chances. They need all 3 houses (house of reps, senate, and presidency) to pass anything. And they’ve had that, drumroll please, for 4 of the last 24 years. Or 6 of the last 32 years. Or 6 of the last 44 fucking years. When they lose, like they’ve lost 20 years out of the last 24 years, they will go to the center to find voters.
The fact you’re willing to list the ACA as progressive when the only reason it was passed was because yhe Dems let the Republicans kneecap it as a “progressive win” is fucking laughable.
And it shows the exact problem with the DNC, and why they lose: they can’t just be progressive, they have to work across the aisle, and have to compromise, no matter what.
And to be clear, I’m not playing both sides, what you’re listing as “progressive” is so laughably not progressive by any metric of the word, that it’s almost funny. The “progress” has been returning to the status quo, every fucking election cycle, and yet you guys bitch and moan the left don’t show up. Why would they, the candidates you’re listing have one progressive policy you’re attributing to them
And wow, cool, you listed Gore as the “progressive” candidate, and then list a single progressive policy he had while dismissing that the Dems gave up the fight for him and let the SCOTUS give it to Bush. Then you talk about one policy Obama had that was progressive and then claim he’s punished for it: it clearly didn’t have anything to do with the fact the ACA wasn’t what the Democrats promised at all, and then they let the Republicans control the narrative on it.
There’s no point discussing further with you, clearly Harris and Biden were the golden children, and all the voters, the people politicians fucking work for, they have to change and get over it. No no, it’s not the Democrats who need to change, no, they’ve only lost 4 out of the last 7 presidential elections, they’re completely right.
So let’s keep voting them in so they can see that their centrist policies work and they don’t have to change everything. Oh, you’re going to change their mind after they’re elected? That’s cute, they already got your vote, what does your opinion matter anymore? You gonna protest? Yeah, ask the Anti-Genocide protestors how that was handled under the Biden admin, and how open they were to changing their stance on that after the fact.
That could’ve been a typo on my part, but in that sense, I meant the constituency of the Democrat Party didn’t want Kamala.
Biden didn’t drop out until well after the primaries had begun, do the members of the Democrat party weren’t given the chance to choose their candidate. A few names were floated around for a week or so, and then the party establishment basically all got behind Harris.
So we don’t know who the voters of the Democrat party would have wanted, they were having Biden forced on them until they moved to Harris.
I’d say the idiot is the career politician who lost to a fascist, convicted felon who gained votes by insulting his base. 🤷♀️
And instead of reflecting on her own shortcomings and those of her political party, we’ll blame and insult those who supported her regardless of her lackluster campaign and policy promises.
And huh, 98% of Michigan is in, and Harris is behind by about 100,000 votes, roughly the same amount as those who protest voted during the primaries… Good thing we completely wrote off that entire demographic of our party in a key swing state, fucking voters should have known better.
having the audacity to criticize the party I’m forced to vote for that doesn’t represent any of my interests.
You live in a democracy. You knew that the people who heard your words would decide the outcome of the election. And you told them Harris is bad. Then they didn’t vote for Harris. It’s your fault. You killed drag’s friends.
Yep, let’s blame the person who A. Told people to vote for Harris leading up to the election, if you check my comment history, and B. Voted for Harris.
The Democrats lost because of their own hubris, Drag, and their own entitlement and arrogance. My words made no difference, especially considering Harris lost Michigan by less than 100,000 votes. The same state that launched the Palestinian Protest Vote movement, where over 100,000 people cast uncommitted votes to protest the Biden admins stance on Israel.
So maybe the Democrats should listened to the voices of their constituents, Drag, and maybe people like me would have less to complain about.
But your friend’s blood, and mine (I’m trans, drag, you’re not the only one that exists on the queer spectrum), is on the Democrat’s hands, and no one elses. They reran their playbook from 2016 and it cost them, maybe they’ll finally learn their lesson.
First of all, Drag, I voted for Harris, and actually voted Democrat down ballot. So from this trans veterans lips to your ear canals: Drag can go fuck Dragself for calling me a Nazi for having the audacity to criticize the party I’m forced to vote for that doesn’t represent any of my interests.
And that right fucking there is why Democrats lose, and Democrats are to blame: they can’t do anything but give us a candidate to vote against, and not one to vote for.
How many voters do you think they would have pulled running on an actual, progressive platform instead of the status quo bullshit we’re all clearly tired of? Medicare4All, free tuition, free school meals, actually funding social welfare programs, actually enshrining LGBTQ+ and bodily autonomy rights into law, expanding the supreme court to actually reflect the country’s wishes, abolishing the filibuster so progress can potentially start again in the Senate, stopping weapons shipments for the Palestinian genocide (or ffs, even taking a stance on the genocide)?
The Democrats lost, and fascism won, because the Democrats refuse to listen to their base. Dem voters stayed home because their party leadership failed to inspire them, and I’m sick of the people asking for policies that will actually benefit them instead of some billionaire oligarchs (where’s the blame pointed at the millions they funneled into the elections) being blamed for everything. This isn’t even considering the four years Biden had to show the American people any progress, any discernible improvement in their economic lives, and failed to do so.
Just like in 2016: the DNC forced a candidate onto the party they didn’t want, refused to listen to any vocal portions of the party while condescendingly telling them that party leaders know best and they need to fall in line, campaigned on uninspiring centrist policies and a return to the status quo, keep preaching about working across the aisle while being slandered and shit on, and then assume the race is in the bag because the other candidate is a fascist reality star.
And just like in 2016, they lost, and they have no one to blame but themselves.
I now think there is no base. Doesn’t exist. If the left doesn’t show up after Biden did green energy, EVs, IRA, student debt relief, non-compete clauses being banned via FTC, Pact act, supporting Ukraine, etc, AND to prevent a literal Hitler quoting fascist getting in, then the left either will literally never show up, or doesn’t exist. The left is done. No one is going to run a left platform for fucking decades. Because the left never shows up, or doesn’t exist.
Ok, but think about those policies, and think about how much they actually affect the average American. Not the white collar worker making clost to six figures working from home with solid benefits, retirement, etc.
He’s done a fair amount, but Harris blew this when she reversed her stance on fracking. We’re using more renewable energy, but we’re still heavily dependent on fossil fuels.
Biden did EVs? Idk what that means, but, ok, first, most Americans still can’t afford an electric vehicle, and the charging infrastructure is incredibly lackluster outside of major metro area. Even with any rebates or tax incentives, I don’t know anyone in my social circle who can afford a new EV, and we’re definitely all average American.
So the average American wasn’t affected by this, at least not in a way that they can directly observe, which is important.
40% of Americans can’t afford an emergency car repair, and over 30% have a negative net worth. Doesn’t sound to me like a good number of Americans can afford to contribute to an IRA, but even then, I haven’t heard about this or at least don’t remember, and I actually pay attention to politics. So it likely wasn’t on the minds of most Americans.
This one I thought would carry him more, but I don’t remember the Dems pounding this home the last few weeks. Regardless, yes, Biden has done student debt relief, but not to the extent he promised, and regardless of the reasons, that’s what voters remember.
Could also throw in there that there was a lot of animosity around student debt relief when no relief has been offered (or even really discussed) for credit card debt incurred during the Pandemic. That’s something Biden could have addressed and didn’t, and neither did Harris.
This was a win, I’ll give Biden that, but this doesn’t affect the majority of average Americans. I’ve never worked a job where I signed a non-compete, and the only people I do work in tech or engineering.
Again, a win for Biden, but not a flashy one, and one that people clearly quickly forgot about.
My only criticism of this one is the fact it was passed, and then disappeared from public discourse. It’s been at least a couple years since it was passed, so it likely just fell from people’s memories, which is unfortunate.
There was congressional fuckery around this though, and the support hasn’t always been as much as the American people want to provide.
Though, I think alongside Israel, aid to Ukraine was actually a detriment. Why can we send Israel whatever with no strings attached or Congressional approval, but we can’t send a bolt to Ukraine without a majority across the government?
I understand the intricacies of those two aid situations, but does the average American? Probably not.
I find this funny, that it’s always the left’s fault for not supporting centrist, status quo candidates. I’m genuinely asking, has the DNC ever, ever, run a true, progressive candidate for the presidency? I mean, seriously, have they ever done it?
Because in my memory, they haven’t, they just keep trying these centrist candidates, and they keep losing, but then keep blaming the left for not supporting them while they move slightly more right.
Why am I such a radical on this platform for thinking, or even suggesting, that maybe the Democrats need to move left for once. Maybe try a progressive candidate and see if you motivate people to vote for someone, instead of expecting them to come out and vote against someone.
It’s not. Student debt relief helps the social worker (takes degree), teacher, etc. Like read the criteria to get
Play the scenario out. 1) Harris says she’d ban fracking. 2) Fox and Trump yell incessantly how that will raise gas prices. It’s an instant loss and she knew it.
Seriously? You don’t know that Biden rolled out policies to support production of EVs? I can only think this is horribly bad faith, so this is my last reply and I will not go into much depth on anything.
And they never will until they go into mass production. The industry needs to start.
WOW. Biden funded charging infrastructure. That you don’t know this… Ok this shows to me there is no point in covering anything else in any detail.
So broadly:
You’re playing two sides here. You seem to want left things. But when I list left things, you take issue with them all for various reasons. So you want left things, but then you complain about left things. You’re playing games. So I’m just gonna c+p a broad answer I gave someone else:
Green energy, IRA, student debt relief, non-compete clauses being banned via FDA, etc. If the left can’t show up to support things like that, you’re not going to get anything further left. Not gonna happen. Not how it works. You walk before you run, you test the waters before you take the plunge, and now that we saw it doesn’t get you votes (midterms or next election), guess what direction the Dems are going to sprint to? Yeah the Dems are going to sprint to the center. Because the left never shows up, or doesn’t exist.
Inflation Reduction Act. 100% that you’re playing games and not serious. I’m out.
You’re not genuine, you’re playing games. But this one I have saved so I can just paste it:
Ok let’s go through this chronologically.
Bill Clinton: After successive Dem losses Bill figured out “it’s the economy stupid”, aka center policy, not leftist policy. Plus when you run against an incumbent (Bush senior) you generally run from the center. So that’s what he did. And he won.
Gore: After the population hopefully warmed up with Bill Clinton, he stuck his head out left with climate change. And bam he lost the election. Thanks 3rd party protest voters! Aka: The left never shows up.
Obama: So guess what Obama learned? Don’t stick your head out. He ran on broad “hope” and “yes we can” and having energy, hoping the ambiguity would be enough considering Bush’s disastrous wars. And he won.
More on Obama: So he enacted the ACA. That’s great, right? The thanks Obama got for that was to lose the House of Representatives for year 3 and 4. And lose the House of reps again for years 5 and 6. And then lose both the House of reps and the Senate for years 7 and 8. He enacted left policy and: The left never shows up.
Hillary Clinton: So what did Hillary learn from the last 6 years of Obama? She learned that the left never shows up. So she only stuck her head out with a big position to left on the map room to climate change. She basically declared war on climate change. You know that big existential issue that all the leftists care about, right? The big important issue that the left says they want so badly, right? And guess what happened? Bam she lost. Thanks protest non-voters! Aka: The left never shows up.
Biden: Just like Obama learned from Gore, Biden learned from Hillary that you don’t stick your head out left on anything. Not one thing. And he was running against an incumbent, so once again when you do that you run center. And he won.
More on Biden: But he did left things anyway. He did green energy, EVs, drug price control, PACT act, chips act, etc. And what were the results? Lost the House of Representatives for years 3 and 4. Polls showed him losing the election to Trump. He enacted left policy and: The left didn’t show up for midterms, and was not going to show up for the next election.
Harris: So guess what Harris did? She adopted Obama’s tactic to run on broad “get ahead” and having energy. She has no reason to think the left will ever show up. And update: They didn’t show up, even when their human rights were on the line.
And people are amazed that they don’t run a big left platform? Every time they stick their head left they lose. Every Single Time. And the next guy learns to go to the center to win. Because the center voters actually show up.
With this history, you’d be an absolute fool to cater to and rely on the left. Because. They. Never. Show. Up.
So how do you get them to move left? By giving them victories first. Consistent and overwhelming victories. Show them it’s safe to take policy chances. They need all 3 houses (house of reps, senate, and presidency) to pass anything. And they’ve had that, drumroll please, for 4 of the last 24 years. Or 6 of the last 32 years. Or 6 of the last 44 fucking years. When they lose, like they’ve lost 20 years out of the last 24 years, they will go to the center to find voters.
The fact you’re willing to list the ACA as progressive when the only reason it was passed was because yhe Dems let the Republicans kneecap it as a “progressive win” is fucking laughable.
And it shows the exact problem with the DNC, and why they lose: they can’t just be progressive, they have to work across the aisle, and have to compromise, no matter what.
And to be clear, I’m not playing both sides, what you’re listing as “progressive” is so laughably not progressive by any metric of the word, that it’s almost funny. The “progress” has been returning to the status quo, every fucking election cycle, and yet you guys bitch and moan the left don’t show up. Why would they, the candidates you’re listing have one progressive policy you’re attributing to them
And wow, cool, you listed Gore as the “progressive” candidate, and then list a single progressive policy he had while dismissing that the Dems gave up the fight for him and let the SCOTUS give it to Bush. Then you talk about one policy Obama had that was progressive and then claim he’s punished for it: it clearly didn’t have anything to do with the fact the ACA wasn’t what the Democrats promised at all, and then they let the Republicans control the narrative on it.
There’s no point discussing further with you, clearly Harris and Biden were the golden children, and all the voters, the people politicians fucking work for, they have to change and get over it. No no, it’s not the Democrats who need to change, no, they’ve only lost 4 out of the last 7 presidential elections, they’re completely right.
So let’s keep voting them in so they can see that their centrist policies work and they don’t have to change everything. Oh, you’re going to change their mind after they’re elected? That’s cute, they already got your vote, what does your opinion matter anymore? You gonna protest? Yeah, ask the Anti-Genocide protestors how that was handled under the Biden admin, and how open they were to changing their stance on that after the fact.
What a fucking joke. 🙄
If the Democrat party didn’t want Kamala as you claim then who did they want?
That could’ve been a typo on my part, but in that sense, I meant the constituency of the Democrat Party didn’t want Kamala.
Biden didn’t drop out until well after the primaries had begun, do the members of the Democrat party weren’t given the chance to choose their candidate. A few names were floated around for a week or so, and then the party establishment basically all got behind Harris.
So we don’t know who the voters of the Democrat party would have wanted, they were having Biden forced on them until they moved to Harris.
And yet I heard no calls for anyone else
We didn’t have time to call for anyone else.
Nobody fucking cares that you voted Democrat dude, you’re still a fucking idiot.
I’d say the idiot is the career politician who lost to a fascist, convicted felon who gained votes by insulting his base. 🤷♀️
And instead of reflecting on her own shortcomings and those of her political party, we’ll blame and insult those who supported her regardless of her lackluster campaign and policy promises.
And huh, 98% of Michigan is in, and Harris is behind by about 100,000 votes, roughly the same amount as those who protest voted during the primaries… Good thing we completely wrote off that entire demographic of our party in a key swing state, fucking voters should have known better.
You live in a democracy. You knew that the people who heard your words would decide the outcome of the election. And you told them Harris is bad. Then they didn’t vote for Harris. It’s your fault. You killed drag’s friends.
Yep, let’s blame the person who A. Told people to vote for Harris leading up to the election, if you check my comment history, and B. Voted for Harris.
The Democrats lost because of their own hubris, Drag, and their own entitlement and arrogance. My words made no difference, especially considering Harris lost Michigan by less than 100,000 votes. The same state that launched the Palestinian Protest Vote movement, where over 100,000 people cast uncommitted votes to protest the Biden admins stance on Israel.
So maybe the Democrats should listened to the voices of their constituents, Drag, and maybe people like me would have less to complain about.
But your friend’s blood, and mine (I’m trans, drag, you’re not the only one that exists on the queer spectrum), is on the Democrat’s hands, and no one elses. They reran their playbook from 2016 and it cost them, maybe they’ll finally learn their lesson.