US culture is an incubator of ‘extrinsic values’. Nobody embodies them like the Republican frontrunner
Many explanations are proposed for the continued rise of Donald Trump, and the steadfastness of his support, even as the outrages and criminal charges pile up. Some of these explanations are powerful. But there is one I have seen mentioned nowhere, which could, I believe, be the most important: Trump is king of the extrinsics.
Some psychologists believe our values tend to cluster around certain poles, described as “intrinsic” and “extrinsic”. People with a strong set of intrinsic values are inclined towards empathy, intimacy and self-acceptance. They tend to be open to challenge and change, interested in universal rights and equality, and protective of other people and the living world.
People at the extrinsic end of the spectrum are more attracted to prestige, status, image, fame, power and wealth. They are strongly motivated by the prospect of individual reward and praise. They are more likely to objectify and exploit other people, to behave rudely and aggressively and to dismiss social and environmental impacts. They have little interest in cooperation or community. People with a strong set of extrinsic values are more likely to suffer from frustration, dissatisfaction, stress, anxiety, anger and compulsive behaviour.
It’s embarrassing that nobody in mainstream liberal circles seems able to answer this very basic question: why do people vote for trump? It’s not that they are racist womanizing nazis (though some of them certainly are). That is some of it, that’s the convenient story, but it really misses the mark.
I’m a through and through liberal, I vote D in every race, I vote in primaries, etc. Some other comments here have gotten some good points in so I won’t re-iterate them. Before all you tankies jump in and tell me that the entire point of the two party system is to capture dissent and manufacture consent and how the only point of the democratic party is to move the needle as little as possible while staying in power as often as possible, yes, obviously, we’re all impressed that you went to college, now let’s move on.
I’ll tell you what Trump’s appeal is:
Your second point is far more important than many people realize. I was born, raised, and now live in “flyover country”, and I totally get the appeal of Trumpism to people here. The sense of abandonment is real and pervasive. It feels at times like we’ve been turned into a caricature, a punchline for city-dwellers on the coasts. Just a bunch of dumb, racist hicks whose opinions and agency don’t matter because “LaND DoeSN’t vOte”, as though there aren’t millions of us living here, many of us even (shockingly) in cities of our own. Those cities don’t apparently don’t matter though because they’re not NY or LA.
The amount of hypocritical elitism I see from supposed leftists who turn their noses at desperate blue collar workers in the rust belt hurts my heart every time I see it. The right’s biggest recruiting tool here is not the racism, or the homophobia, or the crazy batshit christo-fascism. It’s the ever-present messaging that “the left doesn’t want you”. If you want to belong somewhere, join the Trump train. These people used to be the leftists in North America a century ago. Now it’s all been beaten and ridiculed out of them, and all that’s left is populist rage and a list of enemies who have “wronged” them. When I bring this up in leftist circles though, more often than not the response I get is some variant of “lmao fuck off”. I am still a staunch leftist, but it’s through gritted teeth that I stand by some of my coastal comrades.
The land doesn’t vote thing is about disproportionate representation, that somehow your opinions matter more because you’re from a state with less people, not that “we” dont consider you worthy of having a say. It’s just frustrating that tens of millions (costal state) = hundreds of thousands/single digit millions (think: Dakotas) in terms of representation and therefore control of the Senate/Presidency.
That is an issue with our current system, and you’re correct in that it’s not fair to people in more densely populated states. The flip side however is that without this disproportionate representation, people in more rural areas might not see any of their issues addressed as politicians no longer need their votes to win. There is no perfect solution, certainly not with our current FPTP system. My objection to the argument is that it’s often used as a thought terminating cliche to justify ignoring “flyover” voters.
Are there social welfare programs the left has proposed like single payer healthcare, UBI, etc which are designed not to help people in rural/rust-belt areas?
Leftist policies would absolutely help rural america, and may be the only thing that can now. What annoys me is the unwillingness to actually try and convince people to vote for it. The attitude is one of “we’re right, our policies work, all you dumb hicks are just too busy fucking your sisters to see it”. A lot of magats are already socialists, they just don’t realize it anymore. They’ve lost their faith in the federal government and no longer have to vocabulary or the safe spaces to explore those concepts. I’m not saying they didn’t bring a lot of this on themselves, but a lot of them were so close to figuring it out before trumpism took over and the rest of the left just let them go and said “good riddance”, and that frustrates the hell out of me.
I get that, but at a certain point - you can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make it drink. If we succeed in getting UBI or Single Payer Healtcare, we will do so without them, and they’ll hate us for it even as their quality of life improves. At a certain point (and IMO we’re several years past it) why is it on me to subject myself to that? I’m no spring chicken. I’ve been talking to people who disagreed with my viewpoints on social issues and politics for about 30 years. Only in the last 10ish did the folks on the “other” side of those discussions become what they have become.
My neighbor has a rotating array of hand-drawn signs in his yard proclaiming that various groups I’m either a member of or supporter of are idiots and morons who are destroying the country. He isn’t targeting me personally, but he’s got no reason to think I’m not in one of those groups, nor does he have any reason to think most of the rest of our neighbors aren’t. What conversation am I going to have with that sort of guy that will heal the country? How is that one-sided article from Cracked going to help make that better? Is there a part of the country where Democrats have yards full of signs about how much they hate Republicans? I don’t live in nor have I seen pictures of that part of the country if so.
I know that’s a lot of rhetorical questions there at the end, I don’t intend that to be as confrontational as it might sound. That cracked article pissed me right off though. If I’m being generous I’ll call it misguided.
I think you and I might be more closely aligned than we realize. I agree that there is nothing we can do now. The fascists have been too radicalized for too long. What irks me, and what pissed me off enough to write multiple walls of text yesterday, is the attitude I see from progressives that “these people are all just stupid and immoral, their beliefs and motivations are inherently evil so it doesn’t matter what they think or why they think it, there’s nothing we can do”. Like, yeah, that may be the case now, but it wasn’t always so. If the left had made more of an effort reach out to rural americans, say 30 years ago, before the mega churches and republican party had such a firm lock on the area, many of them could have become valuable allies. What we are seeing now is, in my opinion, the metastasization of a cultural disease that was left untreated. When people like myself tried to suggest that we do something though, the response was always the same “eh, fuck 'em, they’re just a bunch of assholes, what could they possibly do other than bitch and moan?” Well, now we know.
That cracked article is nearly a decade out of date now, and I admit it’s not the most helpful. I like to use it because it loosely illustrates the point I’ve been trying to make for years. Namely that what we’re seeing now is not evil for the sake of evil, but the end result of a long process of alienation and radicalization of a group that was once firmly rooted on the side of democracy and, in some cases, leftism. Thanks for reading my word salad.
Well I have to agree. I think we’re just lamenting different aspects of the same thing. I can’t argue with the meat of what you are saying here.
Not at all, thank you for expounding!
So build something worth visiting? The French and Italian countryside is mainly populated with uneducated conservatives, because most smart people understandably leave. They are still amazing places to visit that attract people the world over.
When your biggest draw is “the world’s largest ball of yarn”, why should people care about you? People in cities don’t ridicule you; they never even think about you. You think about them and how they live in an amazing place, constantly downplaying the benefits of living in a place that has no tourists making everything crowded and expensive.
I’m going to break this down because it seems like you’re coming at this from a place of honest ignorance.
There are lots of things worth visiting that you would find if you bothered to look. For example:
The world’s oldest and largest collection of military aircraft is in Dayton, Ohio
The largest cave network in the world is in Kentucky
Indigenous earthworks all throughout the Ohio and Mississippi River valleys
Plenty of small, charming, non-trumpian towns
These are just a handful of things off the top of my head in and around my home state of Ohio. It ain’t Hawaii, but we do have lives. You should come and visit sometime, maybe stay for a while and help push us back toward the left. Plus, you get rust belt prices on everything ($100 for 2oz of weed in Michigan).
How about starting with the fact that there are tens of millions of your fellow countrymen living here and oh, by the way, THEY GROW YOUR FOOD. If you truly believe that the only value a person or community has comes from their ability to attract tourists, then I suggest you try not eating for a week and see if that changes your mind. Believe it or not, I don’t sit around all day begrudging all those awesome coastal cities out of jealousy. I don’t think about you much at all to be honest. What does irk me is the fact that, when people do talk about us, it’s almost always dismissive and condescending. There’s east coast, west coast, the south, the southwest, and that big flat nothing in between. In shows, memes, and movies, the midwest frequently either doesn’t exist, or serves as some far-off no-mans-land that the character is trying to escape. It’s all tornadoes, children of the corn, and naive or racist simpletons. It doesn’t have a culture, it is the absence of culture.
But who cares anyway? Ok so there’s some nature and generic museums, it’s nothing you couldn’t find in Philly or Fresno, and the racists are still really off-putting. Why should you care? I’ll tell you why; because we need your help. The midwest, and in particular the rust belt, used to be a hotbed of leftist politics. In the span of less than a century, these people have turned from ardent secular socialists to rabid christian fascists. What we’re seeing now isn’t just the same old assholes being assholes. Many of these people are honest-to-god fascists, and it’s spreading like a plague through the center of the American continent. I’m sorry for the wall of text but this is a really personal issue for me. I’ve lost a lot of friends and one of the first symptoms, before the cult worship, before the authoritarianism, before the capital storming and mass violence, is “the left doesn’t want me, the ‘coastal elite’ don’t want me, the corporatist republicans won’t help me, I have been politically abandoned” (obviously not literally).
They tried that, but it tanked.
Interesting bit of history thank you for this!
That goes nowhere?
You nailed it. The Dems should win overwhelmingly given how divided, useless and repugnant the Repubs have been for the last decade. Unfortunately, the race is closer than it should be.
Too many leftists make the lazy assumption that half of America is a bunch of racist, homophobic cretins. There is a kernel of truth behind that assumption, in the sense that rural communities tend to be small-c conservative, more religious, more homogenous, and less keen on cultural change. But Trump is none of those things, so what gives? The real answer to the rise of Trumpism is alienation.
I live in a pretty rural area. Just a couple of decades ago, millions of people in flyover states could easily get decent, secure factory or resource sector jobs right out of high school. All those jobs created vibrant communities, but now most of those jobs are gone and there is little chance of those jobs coming back. The vast majority of regular blue-collar folks don’t really give too much of a shit about hot-button cultural issues like homosexuality or Palestine or abortion. They may not like those things, but those issues are peripheral to the main issue, which is having a well-paying, secure job that doesn’t involve sitting at a desk all day. They know in their bones that is was the corporate establishment, in cahoots with the “liberal” elites in the boardrooms of the coast, that got rich by shipping all of their jobs overseas. And they are fucking pissed off about it. I completely agree that a real labour-oriented populist like Bernie could have done well in the rural states, but instead we got Trump, who is a fake narcissist populist who is just riding the wave of alienation.
I agree with all of this, and it is well articulated.
But what is your explanation for -why- things are the way they are? -Why- are Democrats so ineffective and blind? You’re (seemingly) just a random person on the internet, yet you can see all of this; Democrats have the best paid consultants and advisors and pollsters and they still don’t see it. How can that be?
You openly say this:
Yet also pushback against this:
Why would we “move on” from a very plausible explanation of reality? Do you disagree with this argument, or are you just dismissing it because you find it to be too abrasive to fully come to terms with? Don’t we need to name and describe the problem, and encourage others to do the same, if we have any hope of solving our problems?
You, correctly, notice that Democrats are terrible at acknowledging the legitimate problems that normal Americans face, particularly those in rural areas. But aren’t you doing the same thing by refusing to even acknowledge the reasons for why the Democrats are so ineffective? We can’t ignore or look past our problems and expect them to be solved - and I only have one life, so I’m more concerned about systemic solutions than I am about protecting the feelings of our Democratic elites
Politics have become identity for a lot of people and for the people who have not chosen this road it’s very difficult to engage. You no longer have an abundance of open dialogue anymore. I can’t remember the last time i even tried to talk about social issues with people without hearing some bullshit talking point from Facebook/CNN/Fox or whatever that has ended the conversation before it’s really begun for them.
I’m getting saying to “move on” from that to say “I’m not proposing we scrap everything and start from fresh, I’m assuming the context we live in with our current government and political structure having some sense of legitimacy, now let’s explain why these parties behave the way they do within that context”. There are obviously wider discussions to be had, I was just trying to limit context.
Our method of voting has a lot to do with it, ranked choice, STAR, or other voting methods can solve a lot of problems with our governance and political system. Not all of them, but some. All the radical alternatives I’ve seen proposed to our current economic and political system are either untested or failed spectacularly in the past, often because they don’t have good ways to handle bad actors. Not that they can’t succeed in the future, just that I’m a little skeptical of trying them again without some major revisions. I’m all for experimentation though, our systems have to continue to grow and change, it is very unlikely that any system at any given point in time is the best system humanity could ever come up with. It’s easy to talk about “revolution” and critique the current system, but most proposals for how to do that involve a lot of blood and instability that could be avoided if we can intelligently use the levers of power available to us currently. Yes, there are incentives which prevent us from adequately using those levers of power (such as the way money influences elections), but they are not un-overcomeable. Most people don’t vote, if those non-voters voted, especially outside of a two party context but even within it, and particularly if they voted in the primaries, our political landscape would look a lot different. If people never participate in primaries, then yes, we will always get a choice between two candidates chosen by the party elite. But, if MAGA world can get their crazy sauce guy to be the nominee, certainly liberals and leftists can nominate somebody equally crazy. Right? They won’t though. Because the people who would nominate somebody who isn’t milquetoast mostly sit home during primaries and local elections. I’ve been one of those people, I get it, the whole game is rigged, why play right?
You are right to point out that the basic incentives of our political system produce bad outcomes, including the uselessness of the democrats. Changing the voting system is one way to fix that, that’s some that can be done within our current political structure. Another way to fix those kinds of base incentives is by adopting new economic systems that have rules which are not enforced by people or trusted parties. If we eliminate the need to trust people to implement rules, we can solve a lot of problems. This is, imo, one of the main failings of communism. It put the power of the government and the market in the hands of the state with few roadblocks for bad actors. We needed to trust somebody to manage the state and the market, which concentrated immense power in one place. At least capitalism splits the power between the two, kinda.
Regarding changing incentives, for example, there is a trend in capitalism for capital to aggregate into monopolies. We rely on government (a trusted party) to prevent that, but they are subject to regulatory capture and aren’t particularly effective. If the entire US economy used a blockchain instead of the government for this role, a rule could be enforced such as “once you have accumulated a billion dollars, congratulations, now you can’t accumulate any more” or things like universal income could be baked in at the protocol level. A 2% tax is levied on all transactions that goes into a pot, and once a year that tax is distributed evenly to all people who have the currency. No party needs to be trusted to do that, it just happens automatically. Just like every 10 minutes a new block is added to the Bitcoin blockchain and that’s gonna keep happening forever no matter what your national government has to say about it. Blockchain technology can be decentralized, trustless, and immune to nation-state level attacks. You may be a rich and powerful person who is used to getting their way in the legal or political system, but you are still bound by the same laws of physics and math as the rest of us. That’s a powerful thing.
The nice thing about using blockchain technology is that:
Blockchain is mostly talked about in popular culture as it relates to finance, investing, scams, etc but really what Satoshi did (the author of the Bitcoin whitepaper and software) was solve a problem humanity has had for millennia: how do you administer a system where you can’t trust the parties who participate in it and where you can’t select a single party or party(s) to administer it properly? Having an answer to that question has implications way beyond the minting of currency. Ultimately, the more systems we can build that are based on code instead of trusting individuals or groups of people to ‘do the right thing’, the less we will even need government as a structure.
So, personally, that’s where I am focusing my efforts these days. I believe this kind of technology has the capacity to change human society in profound and important ways and undo many of the injustices of our current economic and political systems. Much of it needs time to mature, but the framework has been put out there and now people just need to build on top of it.
Why do you think blockchain would be immune from regulatory capture? Hasn’t the general story of crypto-adjacent items thus far been one of immense gains for the few and immense losses for the many?
And isn’t the historical rule of statistics/maths such that it is clear that these “objective” measures are actually very easy for the powerful to manipulate for their own ends? Lying with statistics is very easy to do, for example.
What prevents Peter Thiel-types from framing and shaping the code that governs whatever blockchain-connected system emerges? And what prevents Cambridge Analytica type entities from manipulating public opinion such that only the “right” kind (the evil kind) of blockchain is the one that “spontaneously” becomes the natural choice of the grassroots?
The error of the Leninists was, among other things, thinking that because they had an exceptional understanding of how historical economic structures have been controlled and shaped by the powerful that they, therefore, would themselves be able to use this knowledge to create a new type of state that was exempt from these failings. That obviously did not occur. And I fear that the STEM types who understand blockchain, and who generally have sincerely good intentions, will similarly be blindsided by the realities and insurmountable corrosive strength of global capital
Which doesn’t mean that no better world is possible - it is. It just means that I don’t think we can trust a computer code to impartially distribute a truly moral justice throughout the country/world. Because the oligarchs will seize and corrode such a code and subvert it to serve their own ends; it doesn’t matter how isolated and untouchable such a blockchain is - if it can be made then it can be remade. And I don’t know how you stop them from doing that given that their wealth gives them practically unlimited power
Because that doesn’t work with democrats. You’re missing something – conservatives literally have different brains than us. They’re driven by stories and images of fear. Trump just sounds like a hateful moron to me, there’s nothing he does better than Biden. His “style” just appeals more to people who have a very different brain than mine.
In short: Trump is the lesser evil.
I just can’t understand how ppl think of Biden as a better human being after how he handles Afghanistan, Palestine, Yemen…
That guy has zero appreciation for human life!
Oh… so close, you almost had it. Trump is the far greater evil masquerading as a lesser evil.
Proud of you for trying though.
Removed by mod
Not wrong on Trump, no need to accuse other users of “brain worms”. Removed for civility.
How can ‘will be bad’ be worse than being already bad? Somebody please explain me that logic.
It’s good to speculate a bit, but let’s check the facts and admit Biden have killed tens of thousands lifes and that is really evil no matter what.
Trump will back everything that Bibi wants to do in Gaza, the West Bank, the Golan Heights, and Lebanon:
https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/4259234-trump-i-fought-for-israel-like-no-president-ever-before/
“So I fought for Israel like no president ever before recognizing Jerusalem as Israel’s capital, which is a big deal. And [I] even recognized Israel sovereignty over the Golan Heights, something that they never even thought — we gave them that,” Trump said.
If you want unmitigated disaster in the Middle East AND here at home, vote for Trump.